Episode Summary

Welcome to yet another episode of the Forever Forward podcast! This time, host Umesh (Founder & CEO, Xempla) invites Robert Philbrook, Management Consultant at RPC Ltd. to discuss the state of Hard FM services, zeroing down on the UK's healthcare sector.
Robert carries decades of experience in facilities management, maintenance, and sustainability, including stints at companies like Skanska Facility Services and Bouygues Energies & Services among others. Having planned, managed, and successfully delivered the mobilization of Hard FM Services at the largest Health PFI in Europe, he opens up to Umesh about things that have changed and remained constant when it comes to asset maintenance and management across healthcare facilities.

The conversation then moves on to the role of modern-day FM companies in delivering what modern-day healthcare facilities need and where they might be falling short. There's also talk about the use of technology, moving to data-driven maintenance, the impact of HTM compliances and regulations on O&M regimes, and the pathway to Net Zero in the context of healthcare facilities.

Tune in to find a wealth of insights like you always do on our channel. Let us know your views on this episode and Subscribe now to stay abreast of our latest releases!

Full Transcript

 [Umesh]: Hello everyone. Welcome back to yet another episode of the Forever Forward Podcast. And today we have a very special guest, uh, uh, Robert Philbrook, uh, uh, I mean popularly known as Bob. Uh, and we are together gonna talk about the future of asset performance management, but particularly from the healthcare, uh, sort of sector space and zeroing down, uh, on United on UK as a, as a market. But before we get started, Hey Bob, thank you so much for making time to join us for the podcast. Would you like to say hello to our, our listeners?   [Robert]: Hello. It's, uh, it's a great pleasure and a privilege to, uh, be able to give you, uh, perhaps my view of, um, How the, uh, hard FM industries, uh, progressed in the time that I've, uh, worked in the sector.   So, um, I'm sure it won't please everybody, but it will, it'll please some p people. You know, the things that I might have to say purely as observations as well. Mm mm   [Umesh]: But again, Bob, I mean, the entire idea of this podcast and the Forever Forward community as well is not to say things or discuss things that pleases everyone, but things that are good for the community. I hope some of it eventually gets picked up, uh, and obviously open to feedback as well.   [Robert]: Um, oh, absolutely. I, I'd welcome any feedback and, uh, you're absolutely right. It's, it is for the, the good of the industry. For good of the, you know, for the, the client, for the people that are carrying out the MA for, and particularly in hospital environments for the patients. So I think absolutely that's really important to remember.   [Umesh]: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And very interestingly, you know, I heard a podcast, uh, a couple of weeks back, which I posted about as well. Uh, it was probably a TED talk where. One of the, you know, uh, I mean nurses was making a very passionately on why nursing staff needs to be at the center of the digital transformation that's happening across healthcare. From the perspective of patient, patient care, I'm sure there are some inspiration that we can draw from healthcare, in that sense.   [Robert]: That's very interesting you should say that because I think that, uh, there's quite a disjoint between what an FM company think they need to deliver. Sure to what, uh, perception the, um, the end user, the nurses, the nursing staff have as a perception of what they should. I mean, I, I, I could give you a clear example of that. One day I asked a nurse, when they draw 15 milliliters or of, uh, a drug into a syringe, what's their tolerance on that? She said, what, what, what do you mean? I said, well, do you allow plus one mil minus two? And they said, no, it's 15. That, that's, that's what you draw.   So typically you get a very good understanding of what they're all about and the way that they carry out their tasks. Where typically if you ask an engineer that very same question, he would say, well, plus one mill minus two. You know, something like that. So I think that the outlook is, uh, totally different.   Um, and the perceptions of, uh, what we do. As an industry to what they do as a, as a, as a nursing. Um, because bearing in mind we're doing the same job. We are doing a mechanical. Um, maintenance, they're doing a physical maintenance. Absolutely. Their patients are humans. Our patients are assets. Absolutely.   Right. And, and, and I think that, that, uh, really does need to be better understood because how many FM companies actually ask the, uh, nursing staff, you know, how well are we doing and what could we do better? Yeah. Very, very few because they're frightened to us because. They know perhaps what the circumstances are, uh, around, uh, what, uh, that decision might be, uh, given from.   Yeah. That, that's brilliant. But I think I, I held you, uh, by making this point. I held you from the, from, from passing on your introduction. So, Bob, I, I mean, I had the pleasure of interacting with you, uh, two to three weeks back. That is where we decided that we must talk again. Uh, but I'm sure the, uh, why don't I give a brief introduction of your phenomenal career that, that continues as you say that you don't wanna rest.   Uh, so tell everyone about your work and be healthy. Case space. Uh, yeah, I, uh, I worked for a major construction company and, uh, my role at, uh, that time in the early, uh, two thousands was, uh, mainly around quality, safety and environmental management systems. But because I had this aptitude for getting things done, um, I was given, um, pretty well all of the business critical projects to, to manage and deliver.   And, uh, one of the very last projects that I undertook for them was, um, I was asked if I was interested in, um, managing the mobilization from a, an existing 200, a hundred year old estate into a brand new P f I hospital. Well, I didn't know anything about, uh, FM and the FM industry, so it was, uh, uh, a challenge, but something that I was really keen to get involved in.   And because. I think that I didn't have a history of fm. I took everything back to first principles. And the first principles were, uh, what do we have in the building? How long does it take to maintain? What do we need to maintain it? Who do we need to maintain it? So working on those principles, um, uh, I put together with a very, very, um, uh, Um, a, a good team, competent team to put together, um, uh, the asset information for the brand new P f I, um, which, um, meant that we started from scratch.   Now, in saying that, um, the p f I was built by the same company that we're gonna carry out the maintenance. Hmm. So that made it a little easier, I guess, for the introduction. But, um, as a first. Uh, we were there eight months before the handover of the P f I, so that meant that I had a lot longer to prepare for the handover than most FM companies or organizations would generally.   Hmm. So I think that that brings me to something to say that I think that, uh, for, for brand new PFIs, I think that the, uh, the maintenance contracts have got to be let at least nine months before. Handover because how else do you understand what you are going to be maintaining? Hmm. And another, uh, example of that is that, um, the builders didn't understand why we needed so much information about the assets, um, because they totally, uh, misunderstood the concept of maintenance.   So we built up then a very good understanding as to what we wanted to do. Uh, and why we wanted to go into the estate early so that we could understand the critical systems. One of the things that we did was, uh, buddied up our, um, our, uh, uh, um, leads, uh, critical system leads with, uh, their, uh, their, uh, Build construction team so that, uh, there was very, very good passing of knowledge.   But one of the, the things Ramesh, that we, we did, I, I, uh, was walking around the building one day and I saw one of the, uh, builders using a tablet and I asked him what he was doing and it, it was the fact that he had a BIM model of the, uh, the estate and that was something totally. Um, new to us as a, as a, as a maintenance organization.   So again, um, from that we understood then the benefits of bim, um, and the fact that, uh, we could line trace, we could do all of those things, uh, uh, in the new build that wasn't possible before. Uh, because everything was on, on a bin model, on a model. And I think that, uh, that sort of revolutionized the way that we started to, uh, to look at things and look at the way that the hospital was built.   And it certainly helped us with, um, finding everything that's, uh, that's in the building. Because one of the other things that we learned that, uh, from the existing estate, which was over a hundred years old, the asset density in the new build was probably as a factor of five. So that's where you start to get problems around when you win tenders.   They normally base their tender on a, you know, a pound per meter rule, which is a very, very old rule. Um, so it doesn't take into account the asset density for these new buildings. So straight away when contracts are won, um, they struggle with budget because, um, it's under budgeted. Underfunded and, um, the expectation is that this brand new hospital will kept pristine, uh, in very good condition.   But, um, because of the asset density and the, uh, the considerably more number of assets that are, are in the new builds, um, it's totally underfunded. Makes it very, very difficult for, um, FM organizations to, um, Carry out maintenance in accordance with, uh, with budgets. Cuz you know what commercial people are like.   They're, um, quite, uh, difficult to, to, um, communicate with sometimes. But in saying that, um, some of the initiatives then that we had to look at, uh, to try and reduce the cost of maintenance, uh, multi-skilling, uh, the technicians. Um, we changed the cafe system, so it was, um, Uh, mobile technology enabled. Um, we even did, um, some assessments of, um, critical breakdowns so that we knew hotspots so that we could then put, uh, stores and equipment, um, in, uh, areas that we knew were typically going to be more breakdown.   No, that, that's a host of, of stuff you did. And maybe the reason why I wanted to take a PO pause and probably we would like to love to delve deeper into each one of them or, or, or some of them, uh, from, yeah, from that perspective. And just maybe this was, how, how long back was it in time was this, uh, 2010, 2000 to it?   It, it was actually, uh, 2010 to 2016. The, the entire mobilization of, um, The, uh, existing estate into the nearest estate. So, um, so not that old and not that recent. So that's, that's, uh, you know, not been back in time, but not that recent as well. Absolutely right. But bearing mine, um, that was my introduction.   I've done a lot of work since in, uh, the, uh, FM industry, which, uh, from the lessons I've learned, um, it seems that we still make the same mistakes, unfortunately. Um, and so that's where I'm really pleased to be able to have an opportunity to, you know, talk about what those things might well be and how you can best learn from them.   Yeah. So I mean, I think couple of things. I mean, uh, I think one, when you mentioned about force principles and you not being from the FM background, I honestly, uh, number of people I've come across who've not been from FM background, but have been able to make maximum impact is phenomenal. I mean, probably just explains that maybe people who are not from that background don't come with that baggage.   So like you mentioned, you're able to look at first principles. So I mean, maybe Bob, that he bring me to the first question to you. Uh, you know, over the years, uh, do you, do you know, what do you think has remained constant? Uh, you know, and, and what do you think has changed when you look at hard services in healthcare?   What's the main constant in what's changed? I think that, uh, let's get onto the good bit. What's changed is there's far more, uh, technology available now to help you manage your Cfam regime, and that is, um, you know, we talked about BIM modeling, we've talked about the cfam systems themselves and much more, um, user-friendly.   They're much more, um, uh, um, Comprehensive right in that, I mean, there's a lot more modules now that interact, you know, that you can go from the CFA system to a commercial model, to a stores model, um, which then makes the CFA system the central hub. For containing all of the information that you might need and all of that intelligence that you might need right at a late date to give you a better understanding of how those, uh, assets are, uh, uh, performing.   So Correct. I think that, uh, that, uh, the, um, the, um, BIM model, uh, the, the cafe system, uh, the other is, um, the, uh, um, uh, The fact that, uh, that you've got these systems now that the, um, BMS is so the bms. Um, I think that's one of the most underutilized is, uh, utilized pieces of equipment you'll find in, in facilities.   And that is that, um, I found that, uh, at the, the estate that I was at, it was probably the most advanced, um, uh, BMS that, uh, was available at that time. We knew so little about it, the builders knew so little about it. Um, and we as the, uh, as the, uh, maintenance organization knew very little about it. So one of the things that I did very quickly, it was, it was a Schneider system a very quickly, um, made contact with Schneider about, um, how we could better improve the system, what training was available for us, because it seems that, um, More than one occasion.   I've seen bims these, uh, BMSs in cloak rooms with a jacket put over the top of 'em. And somebody, I'll say, well, what's that under there? Oh, that's the BMS head. Oh, what does that do? Oh, I'm not quite sure about that, but you know, it's there. And, and that's what we've got. So I think there's a general naivety about how, um, much, uh, that BMS could improve performance of.   Our assets, but, and I, I don't understand why, uh, fm uh, organizations are so reluctant to put somebody on the BMS head. 24 7 because for me, one very good B m s uh, uh, technician might well be worth 10 technicians with the amount of information that's available and the things that they can do remotely might well mean that, uh, you don't have to send somebody out to.   To look at things. Um, but the other thing, uh, ESH is about, um, a lot of the estates that I go on are PFIs. Um, they'll have more than one BM bsm. They'll have more than one head, and they'll be all over the place, and it'll be that they're different. But there's, there's no, there's no appetite to make them more compatible and to bring them to a central system.   So the, I dunno why that is, I don't dunno why. So, the point you mentioned that area underutilized, right. But I think, you know, and again, probably today the are software, uh, softwares available, which probably would not even need for you to put someone right at, in front of the BMS screen 24 7. But it brings, according to me, what I, what my experience has been is that, Very few FM companies until recently, until recently.   Things have changed in the last 12 to 18 months, but until recently, when you go back in time, in 24 months, there was hardly any motivation for them to use better data. And if you don't need data, it doesn't matter whether it's there with you or not. And that's what precise, the reason why, uh, you know, BMS continues to underutilized.   In fact, even C M M S, uh, continues to be underutilized in, in, in that manner. That's my take. I mean, it's like if it's, if I don't need it, so I won't look for it. But once I need it and I look for it, that's when I really wanna figure out that, hey, how conveniently could that be available? And that's where in, in my view, things are, are, are changing.   But, but interesting that you, you make a point on P f I and non p f i. So what I wanted to, you know, lead on to the second question maybe is, How are things different to p f I as compared to a non p f i? When you look at healthcare Center, like what, what changes normally? Uh, normally the, the PFIs and new estates, uh, the new hospitals, it's new intelligence.   It's, uh, it's new, it's a new brush if you like. Okay. Whereas the, uh, non PFIs are always generally, uh, existing estate. Uh, got it. They have what they have in terms of asset intelligence. Right, which, uh, which normally for different reasons isn't, uh, very good. When I first went to, uh, the estate that, uh, I refer to, I asked the general manager, how are you getting on Mike?   He said, well, we were getting on all right until the trust asked us to keep her maintenance records. So I knew then at that point, Where I was in terms of what my expectations should be, should be, and how I needed to change, uh, a culture of, um, you know, this is how we've always done it, to how we need to start doing it in the future.   So, uh, that took some doing, but you take them on a journey. Everybody comes on the same journey. Yeah. Right. Now, one of the things obviously is, is I like with little work that we've done in, in the uk, I mean, and I'm assuming it's gonna be the same with probably all the countries, there's a lot of stress that happened on the healthcare, uh, facilities as a result of covid and everything that happened, uh, which probably made the assets operate in a manner that they were not designed to operate.   Uh, right. And I think that's where one of the use cases has been, that if you can use data, you are able to drive better decisions purely from asset performance, asset life cycle, so on and so forth. Um, perspective, have you, have you seen that, uh, evolve? I mean Yeah. Very much so. Uh, you only have to walk into any hospital these days to see it's absolutely full, you know, for, um, Um, uh, day, uh, day visits or the wards are full, the hospitals have, are, are full to capacity.   So that does put a tremendous strain on, uh, on not just the nursing staff and, but also the facilities. And so it's best then. How do you, uh, best maintain them to keep pace with the nursing activities? How do you keep pace? So, um, and the other thing that that does, um, it, uh, makes it very difficult under life cycle to be able to change anything because how do you shut.   There's no resilience now in the NHS in terms of, uh, you can't move people from one ward to the other while you are, you know, doing what you need to the life cycle and stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that means that, uh, everything's under so much pressure. But the only thing I think that there is around that is umhmm.   More of a responsibility to keep the maintenance regimes running, much more stringently to how they are. And that might mean more maintenance. Um, so you probably intervene more than designed, so you don't do, if you were doing once every three months, you probably intervene early or you are suggesting that you deploy technology and, and you do condition based and, and all the stuff we talk about.   I think you, they're both hand in hand. Mm-hmm. You can't do one without the other. Mm-hmm. I think, um, uh, that, um, one of the things that you just said there actually is quite interesting. I, I, I think I still find a lot of problems with, um, when you start to look at maintenance regimes for critical systems, for instance, which is what I generally focus on when I go into a, a purifier on a state, because they're the things that are the most important.   Um, I find that, uh, some, some have come up with their own, uh, maintenance regimes. So they're not looking at hdms, they're not looking at ONMs, they're not looking at best practice. But as a, for instance, they might say that they'll do a reoccurring three monthly on, uh, critical plant, whereas then they're not looking at the three monthly, six monthly, nine monthly annual.   Maintenance regimes that these things need. So in effect, the change in a filter, changing a belt, wiping some oil off something, and, uh, so it's not getting perhaps the maintenance that it needs. And I, I think that's, that's a generalization of what I've. Actually seeing. I see. So, um, it's about, um, other than the fact, there's still a lot of debate about what needs to go into the cafe system anyway in terms of critical plan.   Mm. Because you get commercial, uh, intervention that will say, well, we didn't tender for that, but. As a one-liner, it always says at the beginning of these contracts that, uh, our equipment will be maintained in accordance with statutory legal htms ONMs best practice manufacturers. So for me, when I looked at what I was looking at, and that is again, at first principle.   For me, there was no debate that that all had to go in. And what I do recommend now to um, estates when I go particularly to the operational, uh, uh, leads, is that, um, you can't leave things out unless you mitigate it. So I always stress the fact about trying to keep us, uh, a risk register to say that, um, uh, you know, we know what we should be doing, but the commercial decision is that we don't.   But then who has made that decision? Because, um, Murphy's Law is that, uh, you know, what can go wrong will go wrong, right? And so, um, if there's no, if there's no record of what your, uh, ethos was around the maintenance of that piece of plant and equipment, Then how do you justify your action? It's normally then going straight back to the operational team, and it will be that, why didn't you maintain it?   And then, uh, so up till that point, there'd be no record as to why they didn't do something. So I think it's very important. That if they do decide that they're not gonna do something in accordance with that, there's a risk register retained and it just, uh, it explains as to why they've mitigated that and they decided not to do it.   That brings me that, that's interesting point. So that brings me to the point mean, if you look at the connective team, you said of there are, I mean, you, and by the way, there are very clear guidelines as far as the health technical memorandum is concerned in the. And the various provisions of how critical system should be maintained, and that's fine.   And stuff like that. You have the annual verification, all of that, that going in and stuff. So it's just coming to the, to the question. Uh, given that so much is changing in healthcare, stressed, uh, as it's every, everything, what, what's the role of a modern FM company? Um, as in the, in, in what the modern day healthcare facilities need?   Clearly it's changed. Uh, I think it, uh, it is changed because, uh, there's so much pressure on the assets, uh, and the way that the hospitals are run these days, but I think it still goes back to the basic principles of general maintenance and the maintenance regimes. Hmm. Because I know that, uh, when, when you've mentioned, um, condition based monitoring, From my view on that, I think it's a very good move.   But in this state I worked at, I, I did express my, um, preference for condition-based monitoring, and they said to me, the trust, mm, when you can provide me records of maintenance for all of that equipment that you want to move into cri uh, monitoring, we might consider it until then. Go away. So I think that, uh, I, I, I don't want condition-based monitoring being used to replace or to, um, uh, disguise the fact that there's a lack of maintenance on something.   I think that they go hand in glove. No, I got the maintenance. But you've got to do the, um, uh, the critical ba, you know, the, the remote monitoring as well. I think that's, uh, it's, it rather reminds me of when I was sat on the runway, uh, coming back from my holiday and I thought to myself, if you asked the maintenance team, if you adopted, uh, for this airline, the same maintenance regime is where you work, would you get on this plane?   And I can honestly say I have asked that question lots of times when I go into estates and there's a lot of them that will laugh and you know that, uh, you've got your answer, you've got your answer there. Yeah. But, but from that, um, it's that when you look at, uh, these critical systems that they have in an aircraft and they're telling you that this equipment is running correctly, whereas we tend to use it in FM to say it's running badly.   And that's because of our maintenance regimes. I think that's because you need to run this, uh, this uh, remote monitoring on equipment that isn't maintained to get that intelligence to say, this is why it's not running properly. This is what's gonna happen if you leave it. But then once you've got that level of intelligence, I think that it then has to be.   Adopted onto plant and equipment that's regularly maintained, and then it's uses a proactive tool rather than a reactive tool. If that makes sense. No, that absolutely makes sense. I love the, um, the, the fact the airplane will probably ask some of the guys when I go next, uh, I can, well, I'm not a good fly, you see, so I always wonder those things.   Yeah. There's a, there's a lot of talk obviously on technology, data driven maintenance, and I think you've answered. Some of the con context already where you say that, you know, any movement to a new way of doing things should only come once you've have done the, in the past things correctly and the way it's expected to be done, right?   I mean, and it should not be like a, a, a, what should I say, a replacement or an either or? Yes. But the basics still remain the same. But what, according to you, does the pathway to transform state look like? Because let's say, I mean, honestly, not everyone would've done things the way they expected and stuff like that, but what does the pathway to transform state look like?   Because, yeah, I think that there's a, there's a disjoint. Uh, I think you get some evangelists within an org, an f uh, a hard FM organization that will say, uh, technology is the way forward, but it's very, very rarely, um, done in partnership. With the operational teams, I think that there needs to be much more dialogue between the two and with the trust.   Um, so that everybody gets a better understanding of what you're trying to achieve rather than, um, you know, you want to try and introduce condition based monitoring, um, but you've not told the operational teams and you've not told the technicians that that's what you wanted to do. Because the other really good thing about doing that is they can tell you an awful lot about what's going on.   Um, absolutely. To help you. Uh, implement condition based monitoring cuz they know a lot of these, uh, this plant equipment quite intimately. I think that Absolutely. Cause they, they're the ones who most mention that they know. Yeah. So I think that they're a bit of a lost pause, uh, sometimes in that, uh, the very last in the, in the food chain of communication.   But really anybody that wants to change anything, they should be the first to be consulted so that you can get a better understanding of. Plant and equipment that they've been maintaining for years, how does it function? What goes wrong with it? And then that can help you build this, uh, picture of preventative maintenance.   Absolutely. Because I think, as you rightly said, and again, the analogy that I was trying to draw right early when I talk about, spoke about the podcast of the nursing staff, I mean, I think if you look at the triangle in healthcare, the healthcare has patients, nurses, nursing staff, and doctors and uh, you know, asset management office, heart FM has.   Assets, uh, junior engineers or technicians and senior engineers, right? So I think, you know, they interact more often than not, uh, with the assets. They, they look at things more often than not. They listen to things more often than not. And if there is a way for that to all of that to go through, but that obviously is, represents a, a bigger challenge.   And, and, and, and I think that's where the opportunity also exists. Do you also see. There has been a broadly, in hard fm, not just in healthcare, there has been this talk of, uh, knowledge issue where you're saying that the, the most senior engineers are gonna retire soon. There's a retention issue. Is that Absolutely.   How, how, how critical that does that become for a, a critical operation like in healthcare facility. I, I, I think that's, uh, we're, it is a critical situation now in that you've got a lot of people that worked within, uh, the industry that are ready for retirement. And I'm not surprised, you know, with the way things have been for anybody that works in healthcare, uh, over the, uh, pandemic, um, they're ready to retire, but it's all of that knowledge, uh, and that goes away with them.   Yeah. So, um, and I know that you see, uh, a lot around, um, apprenticeships, modern apprenticeships, but, um, I think we, we might leaving in all of that a little bit too late because the other thing to bear in mind is, um, when you're bringing in technicians from other industries, bake being 10, uh, factories, you know all of those, and you bring them into healthcare, It's a different environment entirely, you know, and you can't have 'em standing on the bed to change a light bulb, which, you know, I'm not sure that they would do that.   But, uh, it is a different environment where patient care is paramount and, um, so, uh, I I think that there's, uh, quite, um, a transition for anybody that comes into healthcare. To understand, uh, that you've not there to just, to maintain things, but, um, it, it's gotta be maintained in such a way that you don't disrupt patients, nursing staff, all of those sorts of things where normally they would've been doing that in a totally different environment. Yeah. Hmm. And do you, do you think there's a role of technology to play there, to bridge the gap? I mean, tools that can be provided better, because there's tons of information that in some PFIs, which have been in operation for 10 years, 12 years, uh, systems having tons of data, but hardly accessible.   Uh, do you see, uh, a point of revolution happening there? Yes, I do. I I, I think that that's got to be, when you get, is, um, issues like this. I think you've gotta use, uh, more than one solution. So you've got to use the technology, you've gotta use, um, uh, the resources you've gotta use, um, uh, perhaps changes in design.   There's all sorts of things that you've got to, to use now because it will, I don't think that we'll ever return to, uh uh, a less. Um, frantic environment than we are now. I think it's always gonna be the same. So rather than deal with that day in, day out and everybody gets burnt out, let's collectively look at ways that, uh, we can find solutions, you know, makes sense and trust everybody.   Look at ways to find solutions for it. Yeah. Ultimately it is the patients that suffer ultimately. Yeah. Otherwise, absolutely. Absolutely. So that kind of brings us to the close of the, of the podcast. It was really interesting talking to you, listening to first principles, the fact that you mentioned first principle elements of change management, uh, uh, and all of that.   But. Maybe as a summary, uh, what, what are your top one or two recommendations for, uh, modern AFM companies to really get their act together and say, well, actually, uh, I, I, I, your question five, I, I, I really found quite interesting really, because we all talk about net zero. Right. My, uh, my, um, uh, experience of that is that, uh, when I work with organization, they talk about net zero, but, um, fundamentally they don't know what their carbon footprint is anyway, so, One of the things that I do with organizations is, um, let's work out what your carbon footprint is as an organization.   You know? Mm-hmm. What, what's your reliance on fossil fuels? Um, so that then they can start to put in some clear measures, and then they've got something to measure themselves again. So I, every time I ask this question, when I go into organizations and into, um, uh, healthcare, um, I rarely get. That they understand that they really should have been working out their baseline first before.   They start to look at initiatives. Otherwise, you've got nothing to measure yourself against. And I think, and that's again, goes back to the fair first principles, right? Like, I mean, one of the things I've observed in healthcare facilities across where we are operating, your FD has said something else and you assumed it's operating at that level.   It's never operating at that level anymore. No. At 25, 10%, 20%. And your baselines change. So, But again, that's first principle. I think that's a, that's a role which FM companies can clearly play. Um, and say that, Hey, you know, p f I, if you want to go net zero, we are your best partners. Uh, because we know the baseline, we know the assets and, and, and stuff like that.   But again, I, I've hardly seen any FM company put a foot right in this direction. By the way, they're still struggling. Um, yeah. Yeah. And, uh, there's so much available. You know, you can go into the Carbon Trust and you can get the models. You know, I, I do that with companies and we come up with a, you know, a carbon footprint.   But, um, so everybody talks about carbon reduction and z net zero, but then they've not really established what their carbon footprint is anyway, to be able to set some realistic goals. So I don't quite know that they understand that that's what you've got to do. To go back to that first principle.   Perfect. Thank you so much, Bob. I mean, as a, as a recap, I think if I could just sum up this in, in one line where, where Bob says that we are never gonna go back to a previous times, things are gonna be stressed. I mean, as far as healthcare facilities are concerned, and which in turn means that the FM teams and the assets that they maintain are going to be in equal or more stress.   And, and the only way forward is to be able to make the best use of technology. Go back to the first principles, which are engineering, uh, and yeah, and, and make the most of the resources that's available with a very special focus on how do you retain the knowledge, uh, as an institutional knowledge and not just as an individual's knowledge.   Uh, thank you so much, Bob. I really appreciate you taking time out. This was really interesting talking to you. Thank you. And I'm hoping that, that, that the listeners can pick up a, uh, insight or two to act on. I hope they feel the energy cuz I've got plenty of energy and plenty of understanding. So, um, yeah, absolutely certain.   I've really enjoyed it and thanks for the opportunity. Thanks. Thank you. Thanks Bob. Thanks. Thank.