“For the past 20 years or so, Malaysia has been developing by leaps and bounds in the facility management space. Private sector organizations, and even the government, have come to recognize FM as a key enabler in streamlining business operations.”

- Marco Bonelli

Episode Summary

In this episode, Umesh welcomes Marco Bonelli, (Digital Lead at VINCI Construction UK at the time of recording) to explore new developments in Building Information Modelling (BIM), digital twins for enhanced O&M, and everything that can move the needle beyond the construction phase. With 10 years of experience in the construction industry, Marco takes us through his journey of helping improve workflows and efficiency for teams and shares how to bring the most impact from digital to deliver better, faster, and cheaper. You're in for a treat as we discuss BIM and digital twin adoption in the UK, the core users of these technologies, how they connect the worlds of building design and building operations, and the cultural barriers we need to overcome going forward. In all of this, both Umesh and Marco wholeheartedly agree on the importance of teamwork and community in enabling more than what's possible and that making a positive impact in the lives of people is the biggest success there is. We would love to know your views on this episode. Connect with us on LinkedIn to join the Forever Forward movement!

Full Transcript

[Umesh]: Hello everyone. Welcome back to yet another podcast episode of The Forever Forward Podcast and today I have a very special guest with me, Marco. Who works with win Constructions has been there with, there with them for four years and, and works on the, what I consider as something that's happening in the construction space and in the built environment. We'll let Marco talk more about it, but just to bring context on what we are going to be discussing. We are going to discuss Building information Modeling, digital O&M and everything that can move the need needle beyond construction. But before that, a very warm welcome to you, Marco! I have been following your posts, your work, which is inspirational, and I'm so happy to have you on the podcast today with me. [Marco]: Thank you, Umesh. Thank you. Good morning, everyone. It's a pleasure for me to be here. [Umesh]: Thanks. Wonderful. So, just a brief on Marco. he is been there with NC for four years. Vici is a very large construction called mar, also in facilities management. He's a digital lead. he's worked extensively in the BIM space and also being an associate lecturer at the London Metropolitan University. Marco, I mean, I would love for you to give the audience a background about your work, the early part of your work and everything that has led you to doing what you're doing right now at Win. Oh, definitely. Thank you. So, I'm Italian. So I study in Italy and I've moved to UK 10 years ago to start my career in construction. And by academia I'm a structural engineer. So I don't know if now my career went on the right path or went on the wrong path. Totally abandoned the structural engineering side. But I started as a structure engineer in the design op phase in. And I've evolved where I was trying to help the office where I was working and improve the workflow to improve efficiency Okay. To digitalization. So that always been a kind of my core part of my life, not just professionally, but also personally try to bring digital and tools wherever it can help make my life easier. And I realized that when I was in a small office, that the support I was able to provide was very limited. The small office and the general contractor, the client, if they were not asking for something more, they really didn't care much about the help I could have provided them. So I realized that if I was going to work for general contracting, I was able to provide much more support and provide a broader role and be able to help more. A digitalization process makes sense in construction. So something that I'm really focused on is, I know the construction is a very old style. Industry. Yeah. And at my target, I'm trying to improve what we do to just build better, faster, and cheaper use psychology to improve our current process. To bring, try to help bring construction in a more 22nd, 21st century, not just being stuck in the past. And this is where my career brought me to general contracting to try to help the industry. And how's it been going so far? I believe Well, so start, you were for B, as you mentioned, four years ago. Try, we build a team. We had a strategy in short term, medium, and long term. And year by year we try to add build on. Consider kind of Lego brick wall here, barrier here. We had the small brick on top to be able to build better to bring everyone with us because one of the barrier, I believe probably the biggest barrier is the cultural change. Okay? One of the main comments I normally get is, I've done this job for 30 years. Why do I need to change now? Why do I need to use a tablet? Why do I need to use this technology? Why? A robot cannot automate something and try to convince people that there is nothing scary, that we don't try to reduce our workflow, but we try to make it better. Our work better is probably one of the best part of the job. And seeing colleagues that are embracing this path. They were initially were very skeptical. It's probably one of the biggest success we are having because we are bringing everyone with us to be able to move this journey together. That must be satisfying beyond anything. If you see some people change, isn't it? Yes. So you see your hard work again, paying off because what we are trying to do alongside my amazing team, All the hard work is basically made by my team. I'm here to try to make sure that my team has the right resources, the right tools to make sure to do our job, and to push innovation together and see that us, with my team working together can make this difference. It's probably one of the most satisfying, rewarding part of the work. Awesome. And I can clearly see your, whatever change happened from the studies that you did to the work you're doing, it seems that it's working for you because I, I can see the happiness on your face. So we'll get started with the, with, with the questions and of course, your team. Uh, so nothing to take away, I think it's always, these are very daunting tasks and, and as individuals we can only go as far as we can, but as a team, obviously we can, we can do cover a fair bit of ground. Diving into, uh, thanks. Thanks for the, uh, introduction, Marco. Uh, you know, like Bim, the majority of your work is, is in the construction stage, as you mentioned, like bringing in a whole digitization, explaining all the detail that you do in detail. Uh, what's been the driver for your customers? Like, why are they willing to invest in the technology now? How much are they willing to do it? Uh, what have you seen in the most recent past, like over the last. Bi, my work based in uk, a big push was in 2016 when the government US mandate the use of the old BS 1190 to the new is 19 6 50. So whoever is not familiar with the loss is the BIM standard. To be able to deliver project following BM information management standards. In 2016, UK government mandated for all public jobs and Vinci, uh, type of work. Uh, the majority of our work is public, so we work with clients where they are being mandated, something from the government. They were not even sure what it was. So a good part of our job is working with client to try to. Let them know what is required. We charge the benefit on going that path. So even if started, everything from the government has mandated the use of that standard. We are working with our clients, showing them the benefit of being legalized, have a better information. Mm. Assigning the project with a hand in mind and how they're gonna manage it in the next 25 years and see how much money they can save, how much energy can be saved. Mm. Co2 they can be reduced during construction, during the maintenance of the building. So that initial push that came from the government 2016 probably just opened a door that was hard to probably open the beginning for. And now working with clients, we are able to show them the benefit or probably invest something more in the initial part of the project, but having a big saving and a big benefit on the long term during managing the building. And that is interesting. I didn't know that. So that, that was a, that was a government push, which allowed, as I said, opened the doors. Uh, has there also spilled over to private sector or It's still pretty much limited to the public sector. Yeah, also pushed the public public sector, so the private sector, so what was happening and especially asset owner that build something to keep it maintained for the next 20 years to see the benefit advantages of having a food digitalized process. Gotcha. Uh, whenever we inquire, we work with clients, we try to bring these elements at the forefront, showing them the possible benefit of maintaining the building in a much better way. Hmm, that's interesting. So yes, it's open for public, but everyone is moving in that direction. And to be honest, at VE in this moment, we have more than 35 live project, and for us, we have a full biam delivery for almost all of them. Even if the client doesn't require, we try to work with them to still provide a digital delivery because we believe there can be a benefit during construction, even if the client is not interested. So the first project, they really don't want to look at it. We show them still the benefit, so we still build the uh, connection for the next project to just get more digital delivery to them to improve. Gotcha. Gotcha. So help me understand, I mean, like, uh, obviously, and again, I believe, uh, this is most part of your work, uh, is largely in the, in the construction stage. So who's, who's the core user of the, of the BIM model? I mean, is it used also in the construction stage or you are normally looking at it once it's built? Obviously who's gonna be the core users? Are it, is it gonna be the o m teams or the asset owners in your case? For all the projects? Yes. We can divide in two different fact these different parts. So during construction, we are the main user, general contractor. We try to. We keep everyone using three models. So as a Vinci, we have mandated the use of 3D model within our business. Mm-hmm. So would build better, less risk for us. Right. Avoid mistakes. If there are mistakes, we just act earlier. But also it's targeted for the end user that is the asset owner or the on M provider. Because if we build with the. Starting with the end in mind that this building has to be managed, we are able to connect to all the information, the tree model, all the asset management information. So at the end, we try to go with a client, with a tablet showing them, if they click on the door, they see all the maintainable elements of the door. Mm-hmm. Uh, which is the brand, how much gonna be the cost to replace it, or would they have to. If it get broken and has to be fixed, so, and then just have to have a tablet navigating easily on a three model clicking on an element they all the information they need, they can see the benefit. But that can be achieved if we start since day one in the right path. So provide all the right information on the three model. I'm just curious who bids who, who puts the bill for the bim part of the, the entire BIM to be delivered? It's, it's like, like who's, who pays for. Uh, depends of the different case. So. If the client is fully interested to have a digital delivery at the end, manage their asset with, uh, digital or name and a digital endeavor, the at the end is the client that pays for that part delivered. But after uk, uh, all majority of. Designers, structure engineer, mechanical architect, everyone works in 3D using three model. So if the client decide to have this final digital delivery, then the client pay for that additional cost. And our role, especially my role, is try to show the client that that's more additional cost that there is in that part of delivery is very small compared to the benefit that they will get in the next 20, 30 years. Gotcha. So it's spending one to save a. Got it. So that's a disproportionate, that's the benefit. Makes sense. So, uh, and, and, and like you said, this, this push came in from the government by 2016. Right. And I mean, in 2016, how much have you seen, like if you, uh, for a few of the projects that you probably covered and delivered a complete digital model, have you seen cases where people have the, the asset owners or operations and maintenance team have gone run with it and did something more? And actually using it in the operations and maintenance space. Have you, have you seen that? Uh, we had for some good cases, so depends of the maturity of the client. So whenever we approach the client, we try to understand their maturity. The initial part is some won't just tick the box because they're for the delivery, but they don't have a team or they have a very old infrastructure that even if we provide this three model, they don't know how to. But we try to go in a path where gradually we bring them to a full digital twin delivery. Got and it we seen, and we work in some case studies where, especially for healthcare, you could have a digital twin with beacons installed to mobile machine. For example, blood pressure machine. So you can see. Battery charge where they are in this moment, if they're getting used. So instead for the nurses or the health team to try to find those machinery, they will know where they've been left. You can simply find them, understand the battery, the maintenance team can see if they have to be charged or not. So it's a more, uh, organized way to work because you get all the information in one. Interesting with the great case study, especially on the healthcare, where this can be used to improve, not just of saving the mind in terms of maintenance of physical asset, but also, but also cause we have all those element connected with each other. Makes sense. So you, you basically also saying that there is, there's this application which is not just on the core engineering or maintenance side as we've always thought. It's also in terms of how you provide the service to the, to the, to the end customer. In this case, obviously the patient care comes in interesting internet of things. Connected between they can be. The limit is just how much we want to manage the building. So that is the limit. It can be done. Amazing project, connecting all those data in the right way. But still this is, you have to start the beginning of the project because retrofitting all the information after, because the account, the end will be impossible cause it's gonna be too expensive. It's not worth the. That actually brings me to an interesting question. I mean, I'll probably deviate from my, the, the question, but so you mentioned that it, it's all good to do this, uh, once you're starting off, right? At least from day one of the construction, if at all, a, a building that's already been built and they have to go back and do this, is the cost completely, like too significant a cost right now for for it to it to compare with the value that can be the. Uh, it's much higher, but also if we start from the day one, this cost is a kind of included in the normal kind of standard delivery, so it's very minimal. Got it. Not just the cost, but the effort required to produce this information. Makes sense. Got it. Yeah. If we start at the end, it's such a big effort. And probably is not worth the cost for what the information will be delivered because probably is never gonna be delivered as good as it will be when it starts since day one. So that, that's the most important point, that even after all the effort, it might not be as good as what it would have been had you actually done. That makes sense. That makes sense because some part of some good information about the digital twin, digital name is tagging certain elements, uh, digital tags or QR code where you can just walk around with your tablet or your phone scan elements to manage the maintenance. Mm-hmm. And if those elements are already been installed, for example, above the ceiling, To be able to retrograde, you have to remove the ceiling, find all those elements so you can, it's very hard to retrograde this information. Gotcha, gotcha. So you'll always be probably falling behind even if you do something. Yeah. In, in that sense. So all the four years and, and, and doing everything that you have, what are, you already mentioned one of the key challenge that you had faced or learning has been the cultural change. Uh, uh, but I had one question on, on, on that. But apart from that, like apart from the cultural change, What have been the biggest learnings apart from that? Like biggest probably couple of other challenges that you've faced all along, uh, this journey? It's probably the adoption of technology because even if we, one of the biggest challenges, you can adopt technology, but if it doesn't get implemented the right way, it's not gonna get. Mm-hmm. So unfortunately, we seen cases where we have delivered a very good information at the end front and over to be able to manage the building in a more digital way. Mm. The client didn't have enough resources, didn't have the right team to be able to do it, and this information went to die. Just be saved in a laptop somewhere on a cloud, but never got used. So one of the big challenges, making sure the words get delivered, it's gonna be fully used to be able to get the benefit of the document and the spark. Our job. Try to provide training information, understanding that level of resources and during the time that we are involved in the construction stage. Mm-hmm. If we need to provide training, if we need to provide additional resource to them to make sure that what we provide will be fully used. That is one of our key tasks because probably one of the biggest challenges we provide something and careful, forgotten, never get used. Gotcha. And. That's interesting. So, and, and, and that's where you see a role as well from your team or the commu, like from where you can build capacity, transfer a bit of knowledge in terms of how they can use going forward. Uh, when you mentioned about the cultural aspect, for example, you mentioned cultural change. Is it where like there are different, uh, people involved in the construction phase. You will have people who are working on the, on the floor, like actually doing the staff, the mid-level senior level leader. Where have you faced the cultural change? The biggest, the bottom of the every single level. Because you will come from the people that are onsite working, that you have to convince them that that type of technology will help their day-to-day life. But also, uh, what is after in the past construction is try to spend this money improving the technology that will not get used if it's not implemented correctly. So the investment will be a lost investment. So there is also a level of assistance at top level, a senior management level try to convince a certain type of investment. It's not gonna be. Wasted, but is it gonna save money for the future? So in that kind of cultural change is more about the financial part. It's not more about use the tool. So you have to work in more direction to try to convince whoever using the technology that's gonna save them time can work that, but also build the right case study with kpi that that type of investment is gonna make more product. Be more productive, save time, and then save money in the long term, improve health safety, improve quality of delivery. So try to show that that investment is gonna pay off in the long term. So there's kind of multifaceted, uh, sort of benefit that you get from it, um, in, in, in that sense. Now. What stage is the overall market, particularly maybe in the uk, uh, in terms of adoption as far as building information modeling is concerned? You already mentioned that the public sector kind of has been mandated, so they're doing it. Uh, uh, where would you rate it in terms of early adoption? Uh, like, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's like it's gonna go become mainstream. Where is this entire adoption of BIM implemented? I think the UK market is quite mature compared to other parts or other countries. Uh, I will say that some can be in the early adoption, but a good part can be on the full day-to-day use. Just try to change the way that we work. Mm-hmm. Uh, still a long way to go. I believe still considering the construction from the McKinsey report, the latest digitize industry, so, A long path to be able, but then, but then you're saying there's a mixed cohort. There is a cohort of some people who are actually using it end to end. Yeah. And there is a cohort of people who are OR or top, that makes sense. Yeah. UK market I believe is quite mature. We try to use technology all across the world, try to be, I believe we are at the forefront of using technology and construction as. Right. And again, excuse me if I get this wrong, but, uh, as I, I think often a lot of people confuse between or mix BIM and digital twins in a, uh, you know, or interchangeably sort of end up using it. Obviously, uh, you know, building maintenance and operations are kind of best served by, best by digital twin, but construction and design is better served by bim. Uh, how are you seeing the worlds conve. Uh, what, what, what's happening? Yeah. We are not able to deliver digital twin if we don't start with the full BIM information management process at the beginning, because be able to have a full digital copy of what we build can only be achieved starting on day one, be able to have a full BIM pro beam model following the correct BMA information management process to be able to deliver digital training without the initial part. We simply cannot deliver full, efficient digital twin at the end. And then that brings me to the question, like, let's say as a general construction company, you've done your job, you've delivered the digital, uh, sort of big model and, and stuff like that. Then it's the FM company, like either the asset owner is maintaining the asset, uh, by an in-house team, or it's passed onto an FM company. Who, where lies the, the, the, you know, sort of, uh, responsibility to take it further, or who has that responsibility to take this further? And merging with the operational data. So that, just as the way you mentioned about healthcare, you can understand, uh, where the, the equipment might be, what the state of battery could be in this case. When we look at Built environment, just to expand my question, you, you have building management systems. You have a lot of iot sensors, data and stuff like that. Like who gets them all together to, to really make it the, the wonder, uh, that everyone wants to, so there is a, a buffer zone between the Andover and when. The building of an operation. So we collaborate with the effort team called Project to make sure that what we are building, it's gonna be correctly on the Dover and give it to the client for the right use. So there is a period of time towards the end where we work together. With the FM team. So there is a buffer area where both of us collaborate together, where we try to put as much effort as possible to make sure the information we provide is correct. Mm-hmm. For them to start to have all the information required from the FM team to be able to maintain and operate the building, the asset. So we, I believe the responsibilities there is on 50% on each side because if we don't provide the right information, what we give to them, something unwork. And they're not able to use it. So, but the same, even if you provide the right information, but they don't be able to use correctly and don't add all the live information, all the sensor, all the other part, internal things, the information is right, but it's not gonna be used anyway. So the responsibility I believe, stays on both sides. Both sides 50 50, and having that period of time towards the end where we work together to be able to provide the right information for them to use the building, the right. Makes sense. And you've seen cases in, in the projects where you've done or probably where a few are aware, where let's say data from the billing management system has been incorporated. It's actually a, not only do you, when you, when you click on something or when you look at something, not only do you have the specs available, but you also have. At what level is it operating right now, so on and so forth. Have, have people gone to so much of debt? As of now, we are trying to, so what we try to do is work and make sure that our part is fully correct, try to enable Gotcha with the rest. And we start in a pilot mode where we try to check the information or flowing correctly and then we just be there, uh, support if there is anything from our side that it doesn't work correctly, so. Got it. As of my team, we don't have the expertise to work on the FM part because they're different type of expertise, but we are there as support to make sure that information is fully correct and we are there for the initial few months to check and work with them if there is anything that really doesn't work. But we see great type of project delivered on how to make sure that the sensor are connected to light saving lights, energy, uh, usability of elements or mobile elements connect to Beacon. So it's a very good. Uh, part work that is very satisfying to see when is full and the door domain correctly used. Oh, thanks. I mean, VI obviously has an FM r as well. I'm, I'm hoping that at, at some point in time you might just get a full-blown implementation all across, which might just be, uh, you know, the, the, the overall. Because, uh, have you, have, you have, I mean, and again, I, I think in one of my conversations you mentioned that, you know, you, you obviously, uh, can, cannot mandate that because you're from the construction side. F FM is a, is a totally different business in, in, in that sense. Uh, one of my questions, other questions was like, uh, You, you mentioned that the responsibility lies kind of both sides pre like, you know, on the FM as well, but we haven't seen a lot of FM companies make them move, um, invest in, in, in, in, in, in picking all of these up. Have you seen any specific change over the last couple of years? Because FM companies have been very, have been under a lot of pressure from innovation perspective, from cost pro, uh, pressure perspective, and this is complete. This is something that can help them, uh, not only do things better, but at uh, at, at some point in time, improve their bottom line. Uh, based on your experience and what you see or interact with your peer group, have you seen any specific changes happen on the other side? Of the equation. Uh, yes. What I've seen recently is one of the main top, uh, FM software provider, not SFM as a company, but as a software provider doing a lot of work with clients mandating which to be the right software and platform to use. So whenever we approach the client and we start work with them, they tell us, we don't know yet if it's a brand new building. We don't know yet, which is gonna be the FM company managing the building. But we know that all the information has to be uncovered on this platform because we have agreed for this platform to be our or digital. And m or our digital twin platform depends up to which level of depth. Got it. They want. So where we see a lot of investment, a lot of changes wherever those technology company interact with the client directly. Mm. They're able to agree already, which is the right platform. So sometimes that's interesting. Most of the times we dunno which the company is gonna manage the building, but we know which is the platform that's gonna be used to manage manageability. So that is a part that we have seen the. Few years, probably the last year, uh, very change in UK with our asset owner. That's interesting. Get certified and we already know how to set up our standard, our delivery, so to serve that particular platform. And that's interesting. And is that trend largely from, from very large asset owners who have the potential capability to invest in software and technology? Because what they want is all their buildings managing one platform. So they see the benefit of streamline, have one single platform. Gotcha. Very powerful. They could have different company managing the different buildings, for example, all across uk, but they only have one platform that they use, so, so there could be an Yeah, that's addressing That's, that's very interesting. I mean that's a trend we have seen recently, especially in the last year. So those technology company interacting directly with the asset owners, we know exactly which is the platform. Since they, so it could be any FM coming and picking up, but then your technology layer kind of stays the constant and not dependent on fm, oh my god, FM company having their own digital platform. In that case, it's one package they get approach the client one, one package gets sold to the client or the asset owner. But in other case, it just go directly the platform and choosing, choosing the FM company. I mean, I've been a firm believer. I've been like a firm believer that FM companies should actually, would've invested in, in, in building that. But, you know, asset owners directly investing is not a good sign for FM companies. They leave, they lose leverage to a very large extent, but then it's on, it's on, uh, it's on them. But that's a very interesting trend, uh, in, in that sense. Uh, coming to the close of the podcast, we would love to know what's your moonshot or wishlist for this space? Uh, maybe short term and medium. Not too long term, but short term and medium term, probably as a wishlist, I will hope that the client will try to get the right type of knowledge. In the past few years, a lot of concentration of knowledge, uh, certification from certifying bodies are really focused on designer, a general contractor, leaving the client a bit themself, not know exactly what they have to do. They have been mandated in certain area. Required to deliver something, but they don't have the right knowledge and the right equipment to do it. So one problem, my wishlist will be those clients have more knowledge and working and being focusing on knowing what they will need to have to fully manage and fully implement their digital delivery to. Manage the building better, saving money, saving CO2 build, uh, managing the building better in the next 20, 30 years. So something that we try to help ourself, but we have a limited knowledge because we are concentrated on the construction part, not on the asset management. Makes sense. So if that will happen, will really make the process better because we have a better direction since day one working with the client. Makes sense. So we can just Okay. Down. So is that a short term risk list or a medium term or a long term? Like, uh, probably that is a, a medium term. It's something that you will not happen overnight, unfortunately. So who, who, that's interesting. So who are the key stake? I mean, how, how, I don't know. Uh, I mean, in general there are, so there are, there's a community. There's a lot of, uh, so is there, in the, in the, in the, in this digital o m world or the building information modeling world or construction, uh, is there a lot of community initiative where people are okay to share what they've been learning and. I mean how, okay. That means there's a lot of community around UK in terms of being digital information management. Most of them, again, are focused on the design and construction part. Okay. So you're saying it's kinda got it still on their bubble. A bit isolated. So that's probably the more medium long term where. Believe that if they're gonna be more knowledge there, the process gonna be much better. Mm. They'll function much efficiently to be able to decide from date zero to uncover the usability of the building as a much more process. Hmm. That's interesting. And, uh, how should I say? What's your, what's, what's your Elon Musk kind of moment for building, for, for digital twin Building information modeling. And when I say Elon Musk kind of moment is like, you know, I, I remember one, one of the days I asked my team to uh, sort of re just break, you know, break all barriers and imagine what all could. You know, and the moment that came to mind was not, was like just how the screens are there, uh, in the Ironman movie and you have all those things. I mean, are we gonna go into that kind of world soon? Everything digital, super digital, uh, you know, mix of technology with, with conversational AI and, and and, and all of that. Do you see that coming through sometimes soon? I hope so. So we are trying to work off. What could be the construction site of the future where we start from the information modeling, but be able to use sensor machine learning, uh, 3D printing robots to fully digitize the construction site so we can build better, faster, and with higher quality. Mm. Using the course because if you consider the 30% of the costing construction is considered for wastage and works, if we can start from day one, we have a full digital model. Forgetting paperwork and pen and paper from full digital model using tablets and center, uh, robotics to be able to really build better artificial intelligence. We can really save that amount of reworks in terms of cost, most in terms of CO2 and wastage. So much we waste in our day-to-day activity. So I believe that that kind of idea is what we try to bring and we added an idea, define the construction site of the future where everything is fully utilized. We use data. From day one to predict what can be the project, better analyzing and work better together. Oh, so it's, it's eventually gonna happen. And I, I, one of the things that I, I, I heard somebody like kimmi, we, we can always. We can never, like, sort of, we can never dream about the future, but we can always co-create it. And, and when you, when you, when you imagine what the future is going to be, I'm sure you'll probably, uh, somehow find a way to get there. So I can't wait to, uh, read more or learn more about the f the future of the construction site that you guys are gonna come through. But it was, uh, great talking to you, uh, Marco, I mean. I think, uh, this is an area which, which, which I think I also have to, uh, personally acknowledge the fact that I haven't kept up with, kept up pace with, with what's happening and something that I must do. But, uh, thank you for taking time out this morning to talk to us. Uh, Marco, it was, it was good to have you and I'm sure everyone. Whoever has the interest at the intersection of construction, uh, uh, digitization and, and digital o n M would find this episode to be inspiring and hopefully, uh, if at all, some of the client owners or asset owners are listening to it, it'll help them get on to the platform, uh, so that they can participate in it. Thanks so much, Marco. Really appreciate it. Thank, thank you for having me. It was a pleasure. Any, any, any parting final words for the listen? Oh, not really. It's just that, uh, construction is a great industry to be and it's hard to bring digitalization, but there is a great reward and satisfaction if we are able to bring construction together, fully digitalize, to work better together and sharing more information between each other. That's powerful. Thanks Marco. And thank you, our listeners, uh, for tuning in. Thank. Thank you.